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<p>The real-time reference was in response to Ben's mail, see below.</p>
<p>Sure, it shouldn't be as long as it's been now. The aim is to get
notes approved on next meeting and out then - so that's currently
2 weeks. If one mail gets delayed since the notes weren't done on
time or such, then sending the other mails will also get delayed
at least a bit since we want to send them in sequence.<br>
</p>
<p> -Magnus<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-01-14 08:33, Mihovil Stanić
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2928d954-e3db-34e0-497a-a63d596bba25@miho.im">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
I'm interested in what "real-time" are you talking about?<br>
"Real-time" right now is 3+ months.<br>
<br>
There is no excuse whatsoever for that. Meeting notes should be
published inside 7 days from meeting.<br>
I write meeting notes every week for one organisation I
participate in and it takes around 30 minutes to write them from
notes I taken during meeting. If I remember correctly, you have at
least one employee which isn't developer, but probably few more.
One of those employees should write meeting notes and have
deadline of 7 days to publish it.<br>
<br>
Current behaviour is just lazy and unprofessional.<br>
<br>
Mihovil<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">13.01.2021 u 11:40, Magnus Melin
piše:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:97ba9132-7deb-6bdb-f65c-5892f641ce52@iki.fi">
<p>"Real-time" information of what's going on in extreme details
is rather unfeasible. It's also unclear why anyone would
"need" that information. This certainly isn't about hiding any
relevant information. Most things we discuss are fairly dull
details of running operations.</p>
<p>But let's not derail the discussion. A big thanks to Dirk for
taking the time to put Council;DR together! The question atm
is not whether you can get detailed real-time information or
not - you can't. The question is which format is better, and
how we could improve Council;DR to be complete enough to
replace minutes. I don't think having both formats makes much
sense especially given how much time is put into the minutes:
many times we've spent 20-30% of meeting time discussing those
even when there are not any major problems in them. I don't
think that's best use of peoples time, and my feeling is that
there's not a lot of support in the council for keeping both
formats. Which is why we've asked for feedback on
discontinuing them.<br>
</p>
<p> -Magnus<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-01-13 09:16, Ben Bucksch
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8da4836d-43f1-fda7-715f-fc2a6ece73d9@beonex.com"> Am
11.01.21 um 02:10 schrieb Dirk Steinmetz (rsjtdrjgfuzkfg):<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2079ec9d-c019-02b3-df24-f63a7e87006d@rsjtdrjgfuzkfg.com">-
Reminder: we're considering discontinuing meeting minutes.
Speak up if <br>
you miss something in Council;DR that is currently covered
by meeting <br>
minutes. <br>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">It's difficult for me to express
it in these terms of choice A and B, because neither give me
the information that I need.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">For meaningful participation, I
need to know what is being discussed <i>right now</i>.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I also need to know who said what
and voted how. That is needed a) to get an understanding how
a particular Council member is representing my interests and
those of the end users at large, and b) to know how to make
an argument.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Right now, both reports only tell
me the general topic discussed, but not</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<ul>
<li>what are the specific problems discussed</li>
<li>what solutions were discussed, and</li>
<li>what or who is blocking the progress</li>
</ul>
Participation means to be able to be part of the solution.
If I don't know what the real problem is (whereas the
problem is often simply that person C is against it, for
whatever reason), I cannot contribute a solution. If Council
Member C is against something, I cannot contribute in a
meaningful way.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">This goes directly to the Mozilla
Manifesto:<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">"08 Transparent community-based
processes promote participation, accountability and trust."</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">As we could see in the last
election, the current method of hiding information of what
happens "upstairs" has not helped trust, but severely eroded
it. One of the primary lessons from the last few months must
be to regain that trust by actual transparency and real
participation from the outside.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The information I need is:</div>
<ul>
<li>What will be discussed at the next Council meeting (so
that I can prepare arguments to be considered, or even add
topics that I notice missing)</li>
<li>What exactly was discussed at the last Council meeting.</li>
<li>Which arguments (pro/contra) were made, and by whom.</li>
<li>I absolutely need to know who said what, in order to
participate meaningfully - otherwise I cannot communicate.
Without that information, I cannot participate in the
discussion. The goal must be to involve the community in
the discussion, not shut it out.<br>
</li>
<li>If there were votes, what was the exact question posed,
and which Council member voted how.</li>
<li>I need the report within 1-3 days after the meeting
happened. Reports that come in a week or more later are
useless for active participation.</li>
</ul>
<p>I do accept that any names of employees (other than Council
members) or partners will be strikken/blacked out, likewise
any money numbers about specific persons/partners/suppliers,
but we do need the donations and overall revenues and costs
of the project, summarized by department/subproject.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">So, as to how that alignes with
TL;DR or meeting minutes, I don't know. The meeting minutes
given some information about who said/voted what that TL;DR
doesn't have. TL;DR is far more timely (but still a week
late), but TL;DR is far too superficial and vague for my
needs.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I hope that helps as feedback.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Ben<br>
</div>
<br>
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