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<p>"Real-time" information of what's going on in extreme details is
rather unfeasible. It's also unclear why anyone would "need" that
information. This certainly isn't about hiding any relevant
information. Most things we discuss are fairly dull details of
running operations.</p>
<p>But let's not derail the discussion. A big thanks to Dirk for
taking the time to put Council;DR together! The question atm is
not whether you can get detailed real-time information or not -
you can't. The question is which format is better, and how we
could improve Council;DR to be complete enough to replace minutes.
I don't think having both formats makes much sense especially
given how much time is put into the minutes: many times we've
spent 20-30% of meeting time discussing those even when there are
not any major problems in them. I don't think that's best use of
peoples time, and my feeling is that there's not a lot of support
in the council for keeping both formats. Which is why we've asked
for feedback on discontinuing them.<br>
</p>
<p> -Magnus<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-01-13 09:16, Ben Bucksch wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8da4836d-43f1-fda7-715f-fc2a6ece73d9@beonex.com">
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Am 11.01.21 um 02:10 schrieb Dirk Steinmetz (rsjtdrjgfuzkfg):<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2079ec9d-c019-02b3-df24-f63a7e87006d@rsjtdrjgfuzkfg.com">-
Reminder: we're considering discontinuing meeting minutes. Speak
up if <br>
you miss something in Council;DR that is currently covered by
meeting <br>
minutes. <br>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">It's difficult for me to express it
in these terms of choice A and B, because neither give me the
information that I need.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">For meaningful participation, I need
to know what is being discussed <i>right now</i>.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I also need to know who said what and
voted how. That is needed a) to get an understanding how a
particular Council member is representing my interests and those
of the end users at large, and b) to know how to make an
argument.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Right now, both reports only tell me
the general topic discussed, but not</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<ul>
<li>what are the specific problems discussed</li>
<li>what solutions were discussed, and</li>
<li>what or who is blocking the progress</li>
</ul>
Participation means to be able to be part of the solution. If I
don't know what the real problem is (whereas the problem is
often simply that person C is against it, for whatever reason),
I cannot contribute a solution. If Council Member C is against
something, I cannot contribute in a meaningful way.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">This goes directly to the Mozilla
Manifesto:<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">"08 Transparent community-based
processes promote participation, accountability and trust."</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">As we could see in the last election,
the current method of hiding information of what happens
"upstairs" has not helped trust, but severely eroded it. One of
the primary lessons from the last few months must be to regain
that trust by actual transparency and real participation from
the outside.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The information I need is:</div>
<ul>
<li>What will be discussed at the next Council meeting (so that
I can prepare arguments to be considered, or even add topics
that I notice missing)</li>
<li>What exactly was discussed at the last Council meeting.</li>
<li>Which arguments (pro/contra) were made, and by whom.</li>
<li>I absolutely need to know who said what, in order to
participate meaningfully - otherwise I cannot communicate.
Without that information, I cannot participate in the
discussion. The goal must be to involve the community in the
discussion, not shut it out.<br>
</li>
<li>If there were votes, what was the exact question posed, and
which Council member voted how.</li>
<li>I need the report within 1-3 days after the meeting
happened. Reports that come in a week or more later are
useless for active participation.</li>
</ul>
<p>I do accept that any names of employees (other than Council
members) or partners will be strikken/blacked out, likewise any
money numbers about specific persons/partners/suppliers, but we
do need the donations and overall revenues and costs of the
project, summarized by department/subproject.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">So, as to how that alignes with TL;DR
or meeting minutes, I don't know. The meeting minutes given some
information about who said/voted what that TL;DR doesn't have.
TL;DR is far more timely (but still a week late), but TL;DR is
far too superficial and vague for my needs.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I hope that helps as feedback.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Ben<br>
</div>
<br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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