<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Berna,</p>
<p>Leaving the full email in-tact below, I'll quote the points
you've made here and address them.</p>
<p>
<blockquote type="cite">You are missing the point. We had quite
strong opinions on how the council should look in the future.
Also, <u>strategy</u> ownership was certainly not on the
proposed list. I think these strong opinions illustrate well
where the council members stand on the subject. I recommend that
we publish all the 4 different proposals with all the posted
comments and let the electorate determine by itself, where each
council member stands. How about full transparency for once? </blockquote>
The initial proposed doc didn't have a lot. It had changed quite
dramatically by the time you sent your email. It's still changing
(well probably not now given this discussion has likely frozen it
for good).</p>
<p>I'm upset that you didn't first ask the rest of us if we could
get this document into a state where we could share it (and it
wasn't just random thoughts scribbled down), where it wasn't just
an accusation that we wanted to do something undemocratic. It has
poisoned this conversation to begin with because instead of
discussing a true proposal I have in a state that I like it, I'm
forced to defend an accusation of something I don't want
("rendering the Council useless"). To reiterate, I'm looking for a
good split of responsibilities amongst the paid team, MZLA board,
the Thunderbird Council, and community.<br>
</p>
<p>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
<tt>- I, as a volunteer with another job plus two other board
seats and probably the most independent council member, wrote
a full set of by-laws to introduce governance and
transparency, to address the conflicts of interest, personnel,
etc. The document is available to anyone interested. I also
pushed for and provided a blueprint to introduce performance
management via OKR. These are best practices that any
organization should strive for, I had the experience so I did
it.</tt><tt><span class="Apple-converted-space"></span><br>
<br>
If we volunteers have less actual ‘work’ to do in the future,
then we can invest that time into better governance and
oversight.</tt><tt><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></tt></blockquote>
<br>
</p>
<p>I don't doubt you have a lot of work to do, and experience
accomplishing things. I encouraged the Council to support your
bylaws initiative and OKRs the whole time. But it takes four of
the members to pass something, and part of the work is convincing
your peers to move something forward or finding ways to bring them
onboard with your ideas.</p>
<p>My whole hope with splitting responsibilities as described in the
doc was to allow the Council to focus more on the big picture
things that this community expects the Council to do. But, as I
said, there is still work to be done there. Hopefully a future
Council will be able to focus on governance and oversight!<br>
</p>
<p>
<blockquote type="cite"><tt>- Can you please provide the community
with the list of your deliverables as community manager, on
which you spent roughly 70 weeks x 40 hours of paid time since
the last election. What major things did you accomplish in
those 2,800 hours? What results should one reasonably expect
from an executive role in 2,800h? The Council did not even
manage a single strategy or vision session in 18 months, and
last time I requested one, you said we'll do it with the next
council. Mozilla did do pretty much 99.9% of the MZLA
creation work...</tt></blockquote>
I believe I had quite a successful year, despite all the
craziness. As I have shared with the Council, most of a Community
Manager's role is connecting people and pointing people at the
right resources to accomplish what they want. That makes up the
bulk of my work. As I laid out in my bid for Council, there are
many things I want to accomplish - but need help doing (better
user engagement, for instance).<br>
</p>
<p>I proposed a couple of strategy and vision ideas that,
unfortunately, didn't reach the level of consensus that I had
hoped, and I tabled them to focus on other things. Though elements
of them made it into the Thunderbird 78 roadmap. <br>
</p>
<p>It is too bad that other things took my attention off of the
long-term strategy/vision initiative - as it was one thing that I
very much wanted to accomplish. We did have the Summit and that
sparked many discussions about the future of Thunderbird. But I do
acknowledge that this is something that the Council didn't get
done, and that is a regret.</p>
<p>
<blockquote type="cite"><tt>What does not belong on the list, is
the community manager standing up against the bullying I get
each time I ask for something on the council calls, matrix
channel or over email.</tt></blockquote>
</p>
<p>As with all examples of bullying, when I saw an issue I sat down
with the parties responsible and tried to ensure it did not happen
again. Bullying is not okay and I'm happy to go through and
revisit specific situations, and I think we should make sure these
are documented. If you don't want to go through that process with
me given that I'm a peer on the Council, we can pull in another
Mozilla Community Manager to review.</p>
<p>In regards to the doc, if you would be willing to work with me to
review it and help me get it into a state that doesn't have giant
holes and half-finished thoughts, I would be happy to share it
with the electorate. But what prompted my original strong reaction
is that I don't want what was an unfinished process of
brainstorming and feedback gathering thrown out into a public
forum without warning, when I was still formulating my own
opinions on the matter.<br>
</p>
<p>My hope with this thread is now that we've let the "sparks fly"
that we can fill in the missing pieces together, and share it with
the community in a state that truly represents what is being
considered with all the Council members' feedback incorporated.</p>
<p>Ryan<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/22/20 10:32 PM, Berna Alp wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5a29dc9a-985d-8ca9-dc9d-e9db8883c5a4@pep-project.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<tt>Hello all, </tt><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/22/20 2:57 PM, Ryan Sipes wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e4063e7a-0815-0e71-f282-c7afd8836fb9@thunderbird.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>There are currently 4 different proposals (in the doc you are
quoting from) for how the Council, staff, and MZLA board would
interact with each other and where responsibilities would lie
in that document. This was one option and the document has
multiple "TODOs" all over it where more needs to be filled in.
As the original author, it was intended as a place to
brainstorm and iterate, not a complete proposal (and it
couldn't be because there are multiple, very different, ideas
for for how responsibilities could be split within it).<br>
</p>
<p>Coming up with ideas for how to do this is an iterative
process and presenting this as the pre-agreed upon outcome
before anyone has voted or even finished sharing their
thoughts is upsetting to me. I have put forward a number of
ideas on this front for how we could streamline processes in
Thunderbird instead of having the Council decide on every
single expenditure, hire, and various other day-to-day
operations. <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
You are missing the point. We had quite strong opinions on how the
council should look in the future. Also, <u>strategy</u>
ownership was certainly not on the proposed list. I think these
strong opinions illustrate well where the council members stand on
the subject. I recommend that we publish all the 4 different
proposals with all the posted comments and let the electorate
determine by itself, where each council member stands. How about
full transparency for once? <font size="-1"><span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 14.6667px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -moz-text-size-adjust:
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;
display: inline !important; float: none;"></span></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e4063e7a-0815-0e71-f282-c7afd8836fb9@thunderbird.net">
<p> </p>
<p>Many Council members perform all sorts of roles as
volunteers, often working full-time jobs on top of their
full-time jobs on Council work (just ask Wayne). As a result,
offloading some of that responsibility to our paid team
members is an area of discussion, but there is still a lot
more to do on this front before it's ready for a vote.</p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5a29dc9a-985d-8ca9-dc9d-e9db8883c5a4@pep-project.org">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e4063e7a-0815-0e71-f282-c7afd8836fb9@thunderbird.net">
</blockquote>
<tt>Not sure where you want to go here, as I am all for
professionalizing the organization – but not for dis empowering
the council at the same time.</tt><tt><br>
</tt><br>
<tt>- I, as a volunteer with another job plus two other board
seats and probably the most independent council member, wrote a
full set of by-laws to introduce governance and transparency, to
address the conflicts of interest, personnel, etc. The document
is available to anyone interested. I also pushed for and
provided a blueprint to introduce performance management via
OKR. These are best practices that any organization should
strive for, I had the experience so I did it.</tt><tt><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt><br>
</tt><tt>If we volunteers have less actual ‘work’ to do in the
future, then we can invest that time into better governance and
oversight.</tt><tt><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></tt><br>
<tt> </tt><br>
<tt>- Can you please provide the community with the list of your
deliverables as community manager, on which you spent roughly 70
weeks x 40 hours of paid time since the last election. What
major things did you accomplish in those 2,800 hours? What
results should one reasonably expect from an executive role in
2,800h? The Council did not even manage a single strategy or
vision session in 18 months, and last time I requested one, you
said we'll do it with the next council. Mozilla did do pretty
much 99.9% of the MZLA creation work...</tt><tt><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></tt><br>
<tt> </tt><br>
<tt>What does not belong on the list, is the community manager
standing up against the bullying I get each time I ask for
something on the council calls, matrix channel or over email.</tt>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e4063e7a-0815-0e71-f282-c7afd8836fb9@thunderbird.net">
<p>This out-of-context presentation of what is being discussed
is misleading.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
Are you saying I am misleading the community? What would be
incorrect in your opinion in the point I raised? Why would this
process be any more transparent than the MZLA structure creation?<br>
As said, I am for total transparency and to let people form their
own opinions.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
--ba<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e4063e7a-0815-0e71-f282-c7afd8836fb9@thunderbird.net">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/22/20 3:45 PM, Berna Alp
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:95a98413-ba3e-4eb7-d813-36a7ce331426@pep-project.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<tt>Hello all,</tt><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/21/20 7:29 PM, Eyal
Rozenberg wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:b2d325c1-3c69-5d46-1c92-1f3862754ed8@technion.ac.il">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">* Haven't decided yet?</pre>
</blockquote>
<div>I have not yet decided to run, but I would invite anyone
who cares about keeping Thunderbird a community-run project,
to be a candidate, because of the following:</div>
<div><br>
Biggest Challenge for next year<br>
<br>
The next council will oversee change in the model of
operation. Philipp has announced this in his personal
statement, so he does not see that as a confidential council
subject, I<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> provide
some insight into this most CRITICAL subject and how it may
look. <br>
<br>
There is a draft proposal to the Council that envisions a
staff organization with CEO and similar staff roles, WHERE
the role for the future Thunderbird Council Responsibilities
were narrowed (that was the actual word) to ONE single item:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> <br>
</span>
<blockquote>
<ul>
<li><span class="Apple-converted-space">Approving a
yearly budget<br>
</span></li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
Surrounded with a little fluff
like ‘helping the team…’ and ‘championing community
concerns’, effectively meaning RIEN DU TOUT.<br>
<br>
Such a Council will have no effective role, other than to
exist as a facade. You may as well eliminate it as waste of
time. This proposal leaves the Council with ZERO power in
the future, and hands ALL executive power to the staff
members, WITHOUT a proper and effective oversight mechanism.
One of the worries was how to avoid a rogue council? As if
an<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u>elected</u><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>council could ever
be rogue...It has something to do with democracy. <br>
<br>
I have been the only Council member pushing back against
this proposal, which is effectively fully removing the
community and the council from any decision, power and
oversight, and this will hence likely be implemented if the
Council does not change in composition/majority.<br>
<br>
I believe that change is necessary in the management of
Thunderbird and further professionalism is a good thing,
qualified staff and best practices should be the goal.
Governance and conflict of interest processes should be
clearly defined, independently monitored and transparent to
all. <br>
<br>
This proposal for future Council role is a change in the
wrong direction by removing effective community oversight of
the staff positions and of the future of Thunderbird. It
will be the END of Thunderbird as a community project. There
is no way back if it happens. <br>
<br>
I encourage every community member on the electoral roll to
self nominate, especially if you care and remember that you
get what you vote for.<br>
<br>
If you want me to run again, drop me a personal note. A few
positives nudges may remind me why I did this in the first
place…<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
--ba<br>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
tb-planning mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tb-planning@mozilla.org" moz-do-not-send="true">tb-planning@mozilla.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/tb-planning" moz-do-not-send="true">https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/tb-planning</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
tb-planning mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tb-planning@mozilla.org">tb-planning@mozilla.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/tb-planning">https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/tb-planning</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>