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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/09/2012 4:22 AM, Kent James
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:50537CD6.5030003@caspia.com" type="cite">
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On 9/14/2012 11:23 AM, Patrick Cloke wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAC4yyp=C969BWvDRP3WFrpox1PLYDT55c=ud1+hwyZVg8xsLkQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Kent
James <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kent@caspia.com" target="_blank">kent@caspia.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> To push at the
simplicity boundary, we must be willing to reduce the
complexity of the user interface. One of the main ways
that we have to do that is through addons. The user
interface for features that are only going to be used by a
tiny fraction of our users should be pushed to addons, and
not included in the core code.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>To be clear here, you're talking about the user
interface, but not the actual core code? That seems a bit
wonky. Maybe it's time to revise the UI that touches these
features to add "advanced" options?<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I think that our sweet spot (to use an overused term) is the
advanced, non-enterprise user. The complex features absolutely
need to be there for our main users, which means that they need to
be in the core code. But we still need some method to push the
boundary toward the simpler users. That means simplifying the user
interface. So I don't understand why that is wonky.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAC4yyp=C969BWvDRP3WFrpox1PLYDT55c=ud1+hwyZVg8xsLkQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> In the long run I
would like to see us do this more explicitly by adding a
category of addon that is maintained along with the core
product, and shipped with the core product. So these
addons would have the same commitment to support as any
core feature, but are included as addons to reduce the
overall complexity of the product.</div>
</blockquote>
<div>This sounds more complicated to maintain to me. You have
to figure out what add-ons are installed (or enabled at
least) and check various combinations of those to ensure
everything still works. Plus, when writing code, it might
be harder to understand all the consumers of a certain API.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
This has been the major objection to this concept in the past. I'm
not sure though that it is conclusive however.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAC4yyp=C969BWvDRP3WFrpox1PLYDT55c=ud1+hwyZVg8xsLkQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Good candidates for
that in the long run would be chat, calendaring, RSS
feeds, bayesian junk processing, advanced security models,
and advanced search and filter functionality.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Is this list actually based on anything? I use most of
these on a daily basis, as do most people I know of who use
Thunderbird. How do you decide what stays in and what
goes? Can things be prompted/demoted? There's political as
well as technical questions in there, mind you. It would be
great to have hard data about what features are used and
what ones aren't used.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
+1 to the hard data, though note this is reaching out to a new
segment of users so you have to interpret the data carefully. The
list is only my personal list of issues I am aware of, not
intended on being a concrete proposal of any kind.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAC4yyp=C969BWvDRP3WFrpox1PLYDT55c=ud1+hwyZVg8xsLkQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> </div>
I also wonder if some options don't necessary need UI and <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="about:config">"about:config"</a> is a good enough UI
for them. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
That is good for really rare choices, or cases where a minority
disagrees with a decision (New versus Unread counts in the Mac
summary is a good example of that). But some key players hate them
on principle.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
About config options are almost always buried in the comments of the
bug. They are not documented, until now support have had a policy
of not documenting them in how to articles unless they must. There
are literally thousands of settings in <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="About:config">About:config</a>, If we are to
start the process of deliberately placing advanced settings in
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="about:config">about:config</a> for the user to edit then it is time to ante up and
document the ones that are already there.<br>
<br>
On a like note, I find it almost impossible to determine what is
actually stored in a file in the user profile. Recently the
penchant for CCleaner to delete the session.json file as a standard
part of it's cleaning arose. What settings are actually stored
there? as opposed to No idea, no documentation and even searching
mxr does not provide answers. I really wonder, if anyone knows. So
instead of knowing which settings would mysteriously not stay set
when the file is deleted we ask questions of users and generally
fiddle around and suggest the modify CCleaner if they have it.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:50537CD6.5030003@caspia.com" type="cite"> <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAC4yyp=C969BWvDRP3WFrpox1PLYDT55c=ud1+hwyZVg8xsLkQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> <br>
I don't think it makes sense to talk about this in overall
terms. I think it would be more useful to take a look at
each feature individually and see whether it can be
simplified / removed / etc.<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
A specific strategy of being more deliberate about pushing
advanced features to addons is an overall issue, and the main
point of this thread. Certainly we should strive whenever possible
to keep user interfaces simple.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't think it is advanced features that is the problem, it is UI
design. When I am editing my account setup, there is no button to
click to open passwords or outgoing servers for that account. It is
this sort of creaky decades old design that is the issue. <br>
Over in support land users are asking <br>
* how to change a password (Microsoft have passwords, most users
are x Microsoft software). We hide this stuff so well that some are
not even aware they have a password until it stops working.<br>
* They want to know how to "export" their mail to move to their
new device. This is an area that needs action. We have a full
bodied data intensive application sitting on a machine that is these
days often replaced in 12 to 24 months, that is if it does not
simply let out the magic smoke in 6 months. We have no migration
path. Or backup strategy. I know. backup is a machine thing. Not
any more. Everyone copies their important stuff to USB.<br>
* Where have their menu and toolbars gone (How can I send a mail
my send button and it's whole bar is missing?)<br>
* My account does not work and it has a padlock on it! It would
be funny, except for some providers our penchant for NOT using the
account settings recommended by the providers does mean that padlock
is indeed the reason their mail is not working.<br>
*And they still don't get Tabs (Yesterdays description was a line
of email addresses across the top of the page)<br>
<br>
None of those things are advanced features, but they are UI issues.
If the users just don't get it that our design is at fault.<br>
<br>
Matt<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:50537CD6.5030003@caspia.com" type="cite"> <br>
:rkent<br>
<br>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” Benjamin Franklin</pre>
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