AW: Re: Website revamp - comments on main page phrasing opto at
Sun Apr 28 08:58:47 UTC 2019

We need to be careful about the expectations we create. A lot of what the new website describes is plainly not true. We need to be realistic about the current state of TB, which still is not stable nor good.

>Fully customisable: If you read TB's warning once entering about:config, well .... maybe for the expert.

> change the look .. in an instant .. hmmm. Do we really stand behind that statement?

As in other software, there is a certain amount of options that are easily available. On top of that, there are themes and addons which might not work tomorrow, and settings which need fumbling with OS that most of my friends cannot do (they work in social services, not in IT).

>Loosing your mail is scary. (previous author)
Yes, TB does loose inboxes on imap. See  bug  and the buglist in - bug 1169252 . The culprit is the new Win 10 which fills your C drive with updates and other stuff until it is 0 byte, even if 2GB before the Windows action.

And no, even if there is a backup, there is no easy way to get it back into the imap server (see bug , you can't copy it over after loading into local folders). There probably is a way for the IT guy, but I don't see how others would compehend that or do that.

>bringing together speed (new website): imap mailboxes need ages to display in TB because millions of flags are requested from the server - maybe only for some servers, but there are bugs on that

The current state of TB plainly does not hold up to what the new website promises.

I live in a surround of social workers, therapists, music people, 5 rythm teachers, body workers, etc. They might be attracted by what the website promises, but they would fail big in daily use.

As someone else said in other words: it sounds so slick it cannot be true. The bad thing is that we truely can know from bugzilla that it is not true.

I understand that we want and need to show the good sides of TB. That's what PR does. But still, I personally would prefer to do it with more careful wording.

my 2 cts, Klaus

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: "Matt Harris" < at>
> Gesendet: 28.04.2019 01:39:13
> An: 
> Betreff: Re: Website revamp - comments on main page phrasing
>  On 27-Apr-19 8:58 AM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: I have replied inline.  I
> agree with some of your comments,  but I most certainly do not agree
> with others. While I did chime in much earlier in the website redesign
> process, I haven't been following the work so far. Now I'm having a look
> again. I have some comments, but they are not about the design itself.
> On the design front it looks like Alex and others are doing fine work;
> I'm finding some of the main page's phrasing problematic: 1. "Software
> to make email easier" <- Easier than what? This implies there's some
> default, difficult way to work with email, which Thunderbird replaces.
> Easier that what most people are struggling with.  Multiple providers is
> the most obvious that strings to mind.  If the product is not going to
> make the email task easier,  why are you downloading and installing it. 
> Generally I, and I assume others,  are looking for a better way, and
> easier way to complete a task. 2. "Software to make email easier" <-
> I wouldn't characterize Thunderbird's goal as "ease". Perhaps
> "effectiveness", or getting your email and messaging in order, something
> like that. It could be described as powerful-yet-easy, I suppose, but
> not just "easy". Then perhaps we need to refocus.  Easy of use is
> paramount.  Most users never change anything.  They use automatic
> account setup and "defaults"  so getting those right is a very serious
> obligation.  An interface that the user does not have to "learn" being
> the next most essential item. 3. Another emphasis on being "easy to set
> up and customize", which re-emphasizes the assumption that email and
> email clients are scary and difficult. They are.  I remember spending a
> lot of time with my email clients back in the day.  Trying to determine
> what IMAP and POP were for a start.  All I wanted was to set up my
> "email"  but I was being asked about protocols and ports.  Unless your
> background is in Unix,  ports are parallel, serial or even USB. For a
> new user to Thunderbird unless they have some technical knowledge they
> have no idea what is going on.  What is startTLS? how about oAuth?  is
> that the same as auth0?  Email setting are scary.  Loosing your mail is
> scary. Admitting you have no idea is Very scary to some.  When you don't
> know what you are doing, everything is scary because you have no idea
> what a change might do. 4. "Tailored to all your needs" - Thunderbird is
> not tailored to all your needs. It _can_ be tailored to _some_ of your
> needs - but that's customizability. It meets the needs of many people -
> but that's versatility, not tailoring. 5. "Forget about complexity" -
> again, not sure what complexity fears we're assuaging here. I would try
> saying that Thunderbird caters both to simple use of email and to
> demanding, complex use cases. We got a significant share of the windows
> mail users when Microsoft deprecated it, despite us having no import
> process. Compared to that client, Thunderbird is rocket science. 
> Regularly folk need to use userchrome and hidden preferences to "fix"
> Thunderbird.  Blast from the old command line past that horrifies most
> users.  Most of them struggle to create a userchrome folder, or to copy
> and paste text into notepad.  Even after they are told use notepad they
> will use word.  Then try and get the command line process across to
> start the profile manager happening.  Sorry,  but it is scary and it is
> way out of touch with community expectations.  a GUI item to click or
> drag is the community expectation. 6. "If you like Thunderbird, please
> consider making a donation" - while this is true, it is no less true,
> and perhaps even more relevant, to say "If you want Thunderbird to
> improve, please make a funding contribution." 7. "Fully customizable" -
> Thunderbird is not fully customizable; it is highly customizable. Now,
> you could say "Why be so nitpicky?" - it's because all this slick
> marketing is off-putting. Maybe not to all people, but for some. When I
> look at all of the text on the main page, combined, it makes me think
> "Yeah, I can't trust what this page says and You understand email, and
> the processes.  We are selling a product to people that don't know what
> a command line is and all problems can be fixed by uninstalling and
> reinstalling before you move to a different program.  Most people are
> intimidated by pulling to cover off.  Using Thunderbird must be as
> simple as web mail,  unfortunately such simplicity is often disrupted by
> third party products. Matt

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