<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Leman Bennett <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lh.bennett@gmail.com" target="_blank">lh.bennett@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Theres nothing "moot" about it. These
are facts. </div></div></blockquote><div>I wasn't denying that. I'm saying that Metro support is no longer an excuse for not doing other things, because Metro support no longer exists.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div>Developers can talk to you directly over IRC or over at
the firefox-dev mailing list if you want to hear from the horse's
mouth on unresolved issues.<br>
<a href="https://wiki.mozilla.org/IRC#How_to_ask_questions_on_IRC" target="_blank">https://wiki.mozilla.org/IRC#How_to_ask_questions_on_IRC</a><br>
<a href="https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/firefox-dev" target="_blank">https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/firefox-dev</a><br></div></div></blockquote><div>I'm afraid I might get myself banned in short order, but hey if it's an option it's an option :P<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div>
<br>
Oh, and if you want to test the Tab-Per-Process work(a.k.a
e10s/Electrolysis) then visit this link:
<a href="https://wiki.mozilla.org/Electrolysis#Enabling_Electrolysis" target="_blank">https://wiki.mozilla.org/Electrolysis#Enabling_Electrolysis</a><br></div></div></blockquote><div>I'll have a look, thanks for the link. I've seen blog posts about it but none indicated it was stable enough for even Nightly-level use.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div>
<br>
==================================<br>
Leman H. Bennett ~Omega X<br>
MozillaZine Nightly Tester<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 5/13/2014 5:59 PM, Judah Richardson wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 5:47 PM,
Leman Bennett <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lh.bennett@gmail.com" target="_blank">lh.bennett@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>They were debating on what to support. It was
either start up 64-bit officially or do the Metro
version instead. They chose Metro.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Then they dropped Metro support, so that's a moot
point. <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div> <br>
I made no other arguments than it was never officially
supported. This subject was beaten to death within the
community years ago.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>The fact that an issue was discussed doesn't mean the
underlying problem was resolved. Clearly it is unresolved
in this case. <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
On 5/13/2014 5:42 PM, Judah Richardson wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>OK, if you want to argue semantics: what
was the point of last year's announcement
then? Clearly something changed between before
and after it. Call it "official" or whatever
you want, clearly x64 builds were demoted in
terms of priority.<br>
<br>
</div>
Also, your argument doesn't change the fact that
Firefox is pretty limited as a 32-bit app with
no per-tab processes. This applies regardless of
support history. The fact that 3 other major
browsers support some subset of those features
doesn't make the Firefox project look good
either.<br>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 13,
2014 at 5:02 PM, Leman Bennett <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lh.bennett@gmail.com" target="_blank">lh.bennett@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>There was never any support for
64-Bit builds on Windows. Period.
Those builds were made for tracking
purposes only.<br>
<br>
As in, there was never anything
dropped because it was NEVER
official. Those builds were for
tracking purposes only.
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 5/13/2014 1:31 PM, Judah
Richardson wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">It's
happened since Mozilla
dropped official support for
Win64 builds* (I don't
recall what version number
that happened with). At that
time, I switched to the
32-bit builds since they had
official support, but ran
into all of the issues you
mentioned below. Finally I
decided to just take my
chances and switch (back) to
the unofficial Win64 builds.
I haven't experienced any of
the issues I had with the
32-bit build on the 64-bit
one.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">IMO
though, the 32-bit build's
issues stem from the fact
that it's a 32-bit build
with a single process, which
makes it very easy to hit
RAM limits during extended
heavy browsing sessions. If
Electrolysis (Mozilla's
per-tab process feature)
were available, I'd be
willing to roll with it as I
do (occasionally) with
Chrome Canary. But it isn't.<br>
<br>
*Previous to that I'd been
running Win64 builds
exclusively since they were
made available, so I have no
idea when the 32-bit problem
started. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">PS:
One can't help but see the
irony in Safari and the much
maligned IE being the only
major browsers that support
both native x64 <i>AND</i>
per tab processes, while
Firefox supports neither
(for the most part).<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Tue, May 13, 2014 at 12:31
PM, Siddharth Kumar Singh
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sks3286@gmail.com" target="_blank">sks3286@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Judah</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is this something
that has started for
you after the
release of 32.0a
nightly?</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sid<br>
<br>
Sent from my
iPhone
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="http://brownianmotionofthoughts.wordpress.com" target="_blank">http://brownianmotionofthoughts.wordpress.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
On 13-May-2014,
at 22:46, Judah
Richardson <<a href="mailto:judahrichardson@gmail.com" target="_blank">judahrichardson@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Tue, May 13,
2014 at 11:43
AM, Siddharth
Kumar Singh <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sks3286@gmail.com" target="_blank">sks3286@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Been
having lot of
stability
issues with
the x86 build
ever since the
release of the
32.0a nightly.
Significantly
I have seen a
rise in the
memory usage
for the same
number of
tabs. What
previously
(upto 31.0a)
took 1.3GB of
RAM now
frequently
occupies 1.8GB
and I have
seen it climb
upto 2.3GB.
Also, once the
process
surpasses
1.8GB, the
browser
becomes very
unstable
frequently
getting stuck
on sites that
use flash, JS
(gmail, fb,
twitter) or
when i try to
download a
file and the
browser has to
open the file
browser for me
to put in the
save location.
In the first
two cases the
browser
becomes
unresponsive
and i am
forced to end
the process
using the
Windows Task
Manager. In
the third use
case, the
browser window
disappears
completely and
a few seconds
later the
plugin
container
process
crashes.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>This
describes what
I've seen with
32-bit Firefox
<i>exactly</i>.
It is, as I
said in my
previous
email,
completely
unusable for
heavy browsing
sessions. This
is especially
the case
nowadays when
almost any
website you
load is
practically a
self-contained
Javascript/HTML5
webapp. <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As a test
case, I ran
the same tabs
in 32.0a x64
nightly on my
linux 14.04
build on the
same computer.
The RAM usage
was marginally
less (probably
due to Linux
resource
management)
but the
browser's
stability was
markedly
higher. IIRC
the browser
crashed only
once in all my
testing. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Again:
exactly.
Thanks for the
input :) <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers!</div>
<div>Sid<br>
<br>
Sent from my
iPhone
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="http://brownianmotionofthoughts.wordpress.com" target="_blank">http://brownianmotionofthoughts.wordpress.com</a></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
On
13-May-2014,
at 21:25,
Judah
Richardson
<<a href="mailto:judahrichardson@gmail.com" target="_blank">judahrichardson@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Tue, May 13,
2014 at 9:31
AM, Bryan
Price <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bytehead@gmail.com" target="_blank">bytehead@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Tue,
May 13, 2014
at 8:55 AM,
Łukasz Tomczak
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tomczak.luk@gmail.com" target="_blank">tomczak.luk@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>"[1]: x64
binaries are
larger,
slower, and
IIRC provide
no security
benefits. And
data shows
that basically
no one has
enough tabs
and windows to
actually hit
the x86 memory
limit."<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
Badly written
multi-threaded
applications
are too
slower, so it
means that we
should stay
with one-core
only? Oh come
on. I'm not
saying that
Mozilla should
drop support
for x86, I
just think
that they
should get
some more
hands to work
on x64,
nothing more.<br>
<br>
</div>
Anyway, we
have got an
update today.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>Woohoo!
I didn't even
bother to
check like I
usually do
when I start
in the
morning.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Also,
I've seen my
64-bit Firefox
use 6+ GB of
memory on a
regular basis,
especially
when I was
using Google
Reader and
using that for
a few hours.
Yeah, it's
going to take
quite the
number of
static open
web pages to
hit the 4GB
limit, but
today we
rarely see a
static web
page.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Same
here. 32-bit
Firefox
crashes,
becomes
unresponsive,
or just
disappears
entirely in my
browsing
sessions for
the same
reason,
rendering it
unusable. <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-05-13
3:19 GMT+02:00
Alex Jordan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alexander3223098@gmail.com" target="_blank">alexander3223098@gmail.com</a>></span>:
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">On
May 12, 2014
2:46 PM,
"Łukasz
Tomczak" <<a href="mailto:tomczak.luk@gmail.com" target="_blank">tomczak.luk@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> I don't
know why
Mozilla keeps
forgetting
about x64
build of Fx.
Time, when x86
was ruling
passed. x64 is
the future of
IT, soon we
won't have x86
systems and I
don't know why
x86 is a
priority for
them.<br>
Because,
shocking as it
may be,
Mozilla is a
very
resource-constrained
organization.
Which would
you rather do:
keep going
with x86,
which is
well-established
in the
marketplace
and in
mozilla-central,
well-tested,
and
future-compatible,
or spend a
huge amount of
effort on x64
for a very
questionable[1]
benefit?</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>If that's
the case, then
why do
supported
64-bit builds
exist for
Linux? This
existence
shoots your
argument full
of holes.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">
And remember
that because
x64 isn't
backwards-compatible,
Mozilla would
have to
maintain both
(or drop x86,
and lose the
large portion
of users who
don't have x64
yet</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Again,
both 32- and
64-bit builds
exist for
Linux, while
"the large
portion" - to
use your own
words - of
Firefox users
are on
Windows. Your
argument is
inconsistent
at best.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">
- cutting into
Firefox's
already
relatively
small market
share).<br>
Think about
all that for a
minute. That's
why Mozilla
doesn't focus
on, as you
label it, "the
future of IT".</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div> Oh
really? Then
what was the
whole "Kill
IE6" thing <a href="http://www.tomsguide.com/us/mozilla-firefox-ie6-ie9,news-10381.html" target="_blank">http://www.tomsguide.com/us/mozilla-firefox-ie6-ie9,news-10381.html</a>
about then? If
"Mozilla
doesn't focus
on ... the
future" -
using your own
words -
shouldn't the
organization
found a way to
work with
IE6's
continued
existence?
IIRC, one of
the reasons
official Win64
build support
doesn't exist
is Mozilla
still uses an
outdated build
process in an
effort to
support XP, a
*13 year old
OS.* Clearly
there's a lot
of
inconsistency
if not
outright
hypocrisy to
be found in
Mozilla's
stance on this
matter.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">
[1]: x64
binaries are
larger,
slower, and
IIRC provide
no security
benefits.</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Again,
64-bit builds
are officially
supported for
Linux, so
there's no
reason not to
support them
on Windows,
which has a
much higher
install base.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">
And data shows
that basically
no one has
enough tabs
and windows to
actually hit
the x86 memory
limit.</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Which
data? Could
you provide a
link to this?
Obviously you
have users -
such as Brian
and myself -
whose
experience
contradicts
that.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Oh yeah,
and because
Firefox is the
only major
browser
lacking
per-tab
processes -
what happened
to
Electrolysis,
guys? - 64-bit
builds are the
only way to
circumvent the
32-bit RAM
limit using
it. There's
quite
literally no
other way.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>IMO,
Mozilla is
exhibiting the
same contempt
for Windows
users that I
experienced at
a software dev
company I once
worked for
that was
ostensibly
multiplatform
but in reality
was "Mac
first, screw
everybody
else." The
decision to
kill official
Win64 support
was made in
the same
manner: by
fiat with no
consultation
with or
concern for
end users.
Based on this,
I do perceive
an outright
antipathy
towards myself
and other
Windows users
from Mozilla.
As someone
who's
contributed to
the testing
and
troubleshooting
process and
fiercely
defended and
advocated
Firefox in the
face of "just
use Chrome"
that everyone
else says, I
can't help but
feel betrayed,
snubbed, and
slapped in the
face by this.
Go big or go
home. Do
something well
or don't do it
at all. Please
stop
half-***ing
Windows
development.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
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<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
"I never said
half the
things the
Internet says
I said." --
Mark Twain </font></span></div>
</div>
<br>
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mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Nightly-testers@mozilla.org" target="_blank">Nightly-testers@mozilla.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/nightly-testers" target="_blank">https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/nightly-testers</a><br>
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<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>Nightly-testers
mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href="mailto:Nightly-testers@mozilla.org" target="_blank">Nightly-testers@mozilla.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href="https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/nightly-testers" target="_blank">https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/nightly-testers</a></span><br>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
Nightly-testers mailing list
<a href="mailto:Nightly-testers@mozilla.org" target="_blank">Nightly-testers@mozilla.org</a>
<a href="https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/nightly-testers" target="_blank">https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/nightly-testers</a>
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_______________________________________________<br>
Nightly-testers mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Nightly-testers@mozilla.org" target="_blank">Nightly-testers@mozilla.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/nightly-testers" target="_blank">https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/nightly-testers</a><br>
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