how many async-modules can js-app practically load?

kai zhu kaizhu256 at gmail.com
Mon Jun 3 02:12:19 UTC 2019


but that requires coordination among modules, which is not always
possible.  the idea is to inline/rollup es-modules that may not have come
from same developers (and whom are unaware their es-modules collide w/
others when rolled-up).

you should be able to natively transition from development-env (individual
es-modules) -> production-env (rolled-up es-modules), w/o down-transpiling
to es5-amdjs.



On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 8:29 PM guest271314 <guest271314 at gmail.com> wrote:

> One option is to utilize ```shortName```
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Statements/import#Import_an_export_with_a_more_convenient_alias
>
> ```
> import {foo as foo1} from "./aa.js";
> let bar1 = { baz: foo1 };
> export { bar1 };
>
> import {foo as foo2} from "./bb.js";
> const bar2 = { baz: foo2 };
> export { bar2 };
> ```
>
> On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 11:05 PM kai zhu <kaizhu256 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> not inline multiple ```export```'s, but inline multiple module-scopes.
>>
>> ```js
>> /*
>>  * how do you inline the two es-modules below
>>  * with colliding `foo` and `bar` variables?
>>  *
>>  * you can't unless you introduce new language-syntax
>>  * to somehow delimit their scopes
>>  */
>>
>> // [hypothethical] es-module-scope delimiter
>> # es-module-scope "./inline.js"
>>
>> // module ./inline.js
>> import { foo } from "./aa.js"
>> const bar = { baz: foo };
>> export { bar };
>>
>>
>>
>> // [hypothethical] es-module-scope delimiter
>> # es-module-scope ./nextinline.js
>>
>> // module ./nextinline.js
>> import { foo } from "./bb.js"
>> const bar = { baz: foo };
>> export { bar };
>> ```
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 2:54 PM guest271314 <guest271314 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Multiple imports are already possible
>>>
>>> ```
>>> import {inline} from "./inline.js";
>>> import {nextInline} from "./nextInline.js";
>>>
>>> const o = {
>>>   a:1, b:2, c:3
>>> };
>>>
>>> // ...
>>>
>>> export {o, cities, video, inline, nextInline};
>>> ```
>>>
>>> Are you proposing multiple ```export```s?
>>>
>>> ```
>>> export {o, cities, video, inline, nextInline};
>>> o.c = 7;
>>> export {o};
>>> ```
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 6:19 PM kai zhu <kaizhu256 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> @guest271314 <guest271314 at gmail.com>, your example again is not a
>>>> [native] bundle of two or more inlined es-modules.  its just a single
>>>> es-module that that fetches json data.
>>>>
>>>> i'm asking if its desirable to inline multiple es-modules into a single
>>>> file natively, e.g.:
>>>>
>>>> ```
>>>> /*
>>>>  * es-module.rollup.js
>>>>  * this [hypothetical] rollup-file contains multiple inlined es-modules
>>>>  * to improve load-performance in production-deployment.
>>>>  */
>>>>
>>>> // 1. inlined es-module ./main.js
>>>> import { foo } from "./counter.js"
>>>> import { bar } from "./display.js"
>>>> foo(bar);
>>>>
>>>> // 2. inlined es-module ./counter.js
>>>> var foo;
>>>> foo = function (bar) {
>>>>     bar();
>>>> };
>>>> export { foo }
>>>>
>>>> // 3. inlined es-module ./display.js
>>>> var bar;
>>>> bar = function () {
>>>>     console.log("hello world");
>>>> };
>>>> export { bar }
>>>> ```
>>>>
>>>> this native es-module inline-capability may not be desirable to you,
>>>> which is fine.  it would be a datapoint against this feature (and rely
>>>> instead on pre-emptive import-maps and http2-push, as explained by
>>>> @frederick and @isiah).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 11:22 AM guest271314 <guest271314 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 1) original-question - is native es-module's async-behavior
>>>>>> desirable?  async side-effects are difficult to manage -- i conjecture that
>>>>>> async-loading 20 es-modules (with dependent side-effects) is not practical
>>>>>> for most mortals to handle.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It depends on what *you *mean by "desirable" in a given context.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no difference from loading 1 module and loading 1000 modules
>>>>> except for network cost, memory and disk space usage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mortals can handle far more than loading 20 es-modules.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the specific  "side-effects" that you are referring to?
>>>>>
>>>>> describes the mechanism for how to hint the brower to pre-fetch 20
>>>>>> es-modules. but if you pre-fetch, then is loading-behavior effectively
>>>>>> synchronous?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Resources can be "pre-fetched" using various means. From caching the
>>>>> first request and using the cached data instead of making future requests
>>>>> for the same resources to storing one or more entire directories in the
>>>>> browser configuration folder using `requestFileSystem` (Chromiom/Chrome).
>>>>>
>>>>> but was unclear whether they were individual [async] ```<script
>>>>>> type="module">``` tags, or some es5-transpiled rollup
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There should not be any difference between the two approaches. If
>>>>> there is a difference then you should be able to clearly state what the
>>>>> difference is, and demonstrate the difference by reproduction, without
>>>>> speculating and not demonstrating a difference by means of reproduction.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) the second-question about es-module rollups (which you and i are
>>>>>> debating) stemmed from @isiah's response -- if he and everyone-else use
>>>>>> es5-transpiled rollups (which i suspect),
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do not care what "everyone-else" is supposedly doing. How can you
>>>>> possibly know what everyone-else is doing and even if you did know what
>>>>> third-parties are doing how does that affect what you are doing?
>>>>>
>>>>> then shouldn't it be desirable for es-modules to natively support
>>>>>> rollups as well?  currently, there's no way to natively rollup multiple
>>>>>> es-modules into a single bundle.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are ways to "bundle" multiple modules into a single export
>>>>> "natively", as demonstrated at the previously posted code.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another example approach
>>>>>
>>>>> ```
>>>>> // sync
>>>>> const o = {
>>>>>   a:1, b:2, c:3
>>>>> };
>>>>> // async
>>>>> const cities = fetch("
>>>>> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/guest271314/ffac94353ab16f42160e/raw/aaee70a3e351f6c7bc00178eabb5970a02df87e9/states.json
>>>>> ")
>>>>>                .then(response => response.json())
>>>>>                .catch(e => {console.error(e); return "error fetching
>>>>> cities module"});
>>>>> // async
>>>>> const video = fetch("
>>>>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/120-cell.ogv")
>>>>>                .then(response => response.blob())
>>>>>               .catch(e => {console.error(e); return "error fetching
>>>>> video module"});
>>>>> // multiple "modules" exported
>>>>> export {o, cities, video};
>>>>> ```
>>>>>
>>>>> at single ```<script type="module">```
>>>>>
>>>>> ```
>>>>>     <script type="module">
>>>>>       import * as o from "./script.js";
>>>>>       (async(mods) => {
>>>>>         for (const [key, value] of mods) {
>>>>>           if (value instanceof Promise) {
>>>>>             console.log("async module", key, await value)
>>>>>           } else {
>>>>>             console.log("sync module", key, value);
>>>>>           }
>>>>>         }
>>>>>       })(Object.entries(o));
>>>>>     </script>
>>>>> ```
>>>>>
>>>>> Still there is no actual problem statement. Rather, there is
>>>>> conjecture without a definitive issue to solve.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 3:54 AM kai zhu <kaizhu256 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> i apologize for poor framing of my questions.  they are still
>>>>>> formative, but i can clarify abit as follows:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) original-question - is native es-module's async-behavior
>>>>>> desirable?  async side-effects are difficult to manage -- i conjecture that
>>>>>> async-loading 20 es-modules (with dependent side-effects) is not practical
>>>>>> for most mortals to handle.
>>>>>> @frederick describes the mechanism for how to hint the brower to
>>>>>> pre-fetch 20 es-modules. but if you pre-fetch, then is loading-behavior
>>>>>> effectively synchronous?
>>>>>> @isiah says he has experience loading 50-100 modules, but was unclear
>>>>>> whether they were individual [async] ```<script type="module">```
>>>>>> tags, or some es5-transpiled rollup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i may be wrong about everything, as i'm a bit ignorant on what async
>>>>>> actually means in es-modules (and appreciate it, if someone can clarify
>>>>>> that).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) the second-question about es-module rollups (which you and i are
>>>>>> debating) stemmed from @isiah's response -- if he and everyone-else use
>>>>>> es5-transpiled rollups (which i suspect), then shouldn't it be desirable
>>>>>> for es-modules to natively support rollups as well?  currently, there's no
>>>>>> way to natively rollup multiple es-modules into a single bundle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> this 2nd question also has implications about es-module's
>>>>>> async-behavior (because rollups "load" modules in sync/blocking fashion).
>>>>>> this could change side-effect behaviors between development-mode (20
>>>>>> [async] ```<script type="module">``` tags) and production-mode (1
>>>>>> rollup-bundle).  again, i may be wrong about that, as i'm ignorant about
>>>>>> what async actually is in es-modules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -kai
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 9:22 PM guest271314 <guest271314 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > it doesn't actually ```import``` 1000+ es-modules inside the
>>>>>>> rollup-file. it just creates one es-module that exports a dictionary -- and
>>>>>>> assigns the dictionary 1000+ vanilla json-objects and functions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The code provides a means to fetch N resources and export those
>>>>>>> resources within a single object.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > currently, as i'm aware, nobody uses native es-modules in
>>>>>>> production, because it cannot be rolled-up.
>>>>>>> > in practice es-modules are [babel] transpiled down to es5-amd (or
>>>>>>> similar) for rollup-purposes.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > if we're actually committed to native es-modules, then we either
>>>>>>> > 1) need to depend on embedders like loading-dev at chromium.org to
>>>>>>> create sophisticated cache-systems, or
>>>>>>> > 2) introduce new language-syntax to delimit es-modules for
>>>>>>> rollup-purposes, e.g.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You still have not clearly defined what you mean by "rolled-up".
>>>>>>> That language appears to be a random nickname, not any immutable principle
>>>>>>> that individuals are bound to recognize or observe (even if "rolled-up"
>>>>>>> were some form of a coding style or standard).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nor is it clear what you mean by "production".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no external central committee that stamps code as
>>>>>>> "production". Even if there were no individual is obliged to submit to such
>>>>>>> a procedure nor have any concern for such an arbitrary and irrelevant
>>>>>>> presumptive review of code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only observable points are input and output. In general, how
>>>>>>> output is achieved is immaterial. If there are specific restrictions as to
>>>>>>> how the output can be achieved then those restrictions need to be clearly
>>>>>>> defined.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The original post asked "how many async-modules can js-app
>>>>>>> practically load?" and mentioned "circular-references" (the thread
>>>>>>> appears to mainly be about one or more coding styles, not code itself)
>>>>>>> though as yet no code has been posted which demonstrates
>>>>>>> "circular-references" or any other coding problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 1:30 AM kai zhu <kaizhu256 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i played around with your code in jsfiddle [1], and understand it a
>>>>>>>> little more.
>>>>>>>> it doesn't actually ```import``` 1000+ es-modules inside the
>>>>>>>> rollup-file.
>>>>>>>> it just creates one es-module that exports a dictionary
>>>>>>>>  -- and assigns the dictionary 1000+ vanilla json-objects and
>>>>>>>> functions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ```js
>>>>>>>> // the "rollup-file" is a single es-module
>>>>>>>> // that exports 1000+ vanilla dictionary-entries
>>>>>>>> const modules = {};
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> // this is not a es-module, nor is it rolled-up (external fetch)
>>>>>>>> modules.image = <await fetch json from gist.github.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> // this is not a [rolled-up] es-module
>>>>>>>> modules.fn = function () {...}
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> // these are not [rolled-up] es-modules
>>>>>>>> Object.assign(modules, <1000 json-entries>)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> export {modules}
>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> currently, as i'm aware, nobody uses native es-modules in
>>>>>>>> production, because it cannot be rolled-up.
>>>>>>>> in practice es-modules are [babel] transpiled down to es5-amd (or
>>>>>>>> similar) for rollup-purposes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if we're actually committed to native es-modules, then we either
>>>>>>>> 1) need to depend on embedders like loading-dev at chromium.org to
>>>>>>>> create sophisticated cache-systems, or
>>>>>>>> 2) introduce new language-syntax to delimit es-modules for
>>>>>>>> rollup-purposes, e.g.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ```js
>>>>>>>> // rollup.js with [hypothetical] # delimited es-modules
>>>>>>>> # module aa
>>>>>>>> import {bb} as bb;
>>>>>>>> export ...;
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> # module bb
>>>>>>>> export ...;
>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i'm generally skeptical of option 1, given how poorly npmjs.com
>>>>>>>> has handled similar problems deduplicating children in node_modules/
>>>>>>>> directory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] jsfiddle pseudo-module rollup
>>>>>>>> https://jsfiddle.net/06twrLfd/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 5:30 PM guest271314 <guest271314 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > your rollup solution is interesting,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What  is "rollup" referring to?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > but i get an error when run in chrome (i changed to n=20 to
>>>>>>>>> prevent name-collision, but it still happens).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The duplicate ("collision") entry an ```try..catch``` block is
>>>>>>>>> included in the code to demonstrate given an array of module names to be
>>>>>>>>> exported and imported as identifiers 1) duplicate entries can be filtered;
>>>>>>>>> 2) if a plain object is exported duplicate identifiers ("collision") is not
>>>>>>>>> possible as a JavaScript plain object does not have duplicate property
>>>>>>>>> names ("collision"); if there is an issue with identifiers in a module the
>>>>>>>>> cause would not be the number of async-modules loaded ("how many"), but the
>>>>>>>>> naming of the identifiers within the code, using or not using ```const```
>>>>>>>>> or ```let```. Still not sure what the actual issue is?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > don't completely understand how it works,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Use an ```async``` function to fetch data, check for the described
>>>>>>>>> "collision" , create a ```data URI``` to be imported, optionally, append
>>>>>>>>> addition code to be executed within the ```<script type="module">```.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > but not sure of suitability for production-use, because of its
>>>>>>>>> dynamic <script> tag generation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What is the issue with dynamic ```<script>``` tag generation?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is more than one possible approach to achieve the
>>>>>>>>> presumptive requirement, that is still not clear to the exclusion of what
>>>>>>>>> is not the expected result.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There were no restrictions described at the OP and following
>>>>>>>>> messages other than other than
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > pure-es6 application with 20 es-modules rolled-up into one
>>>>>>>>> [production] bundle?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The example code uses only JavaScript implementation shipped with
>>>>>>>>> the browser without any external, third-party libraries.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What standard or definition are you relying for the meaning of the
>>>>>>>>> term "production-use"? What procedure are you using to determine if code is
>>>>>>>>> "production-use" "suitable"? How is that procedure related to "how many
>>>>>>>>> async-modules can js-app practically load?"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 9:42 PM kai zhu <kaizhu256 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> your rollup solution is interesting, but i get an error when run
>>>>>>>>>> in chrome (i changed to n=20 to prevent name-collision, but it still
>>>>>>>>>> happens).  don't completely understand how it works, but not sure of
>>>>>>>>>> suitability for production-use, because of its dynamic <script> tag
>>>>>>>>>> generation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ```console
>>>>>>>>>> ReferenceError: module names ["yeqjqb02mvg3yze26rc5"] are not
>>>>>>>>>> unique
>>>>>>>>>>     at
>>>>>>>>>> data:application/javascript,%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20const%20modules...
>>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 2:33 PM guest271314 <guest271314 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Re: how many async-modules can js-app practically load?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> An example of exporting and importing loading 1000 properties in
>>>>>>>>>>> a single module, where duplicate property names are checked for. Since
>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript plain objects cannot have duplicate property names there should
>>>>>>>>>>> not be any "collisions"; the code can check for and modify the object to be
>>>>>>>>>>> exported, though the last duplicate property name will be exported without
>>>>>>>>>>> any errors thrown unless the code is composed to throw such an error.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>>>   (async() => {
>>>>>>>>>>>     const oneThousandModules = encodeURIComponent(
>>>>>>>>>>>       // substitute rand for a Set of module names to be exported
>>>>>>>>>>>       // e.g. const moduleNames = ['moduleA', 'moduleB',
>>>>>>>>>>> ...moduleZ]
>>>>>>>>>>>       `
>>>>>>>>>>>       const modules = {};
>>>>>>>>>>>       // set a function to be exported
>>>>>>>>>>>       modules.fn = function() {return 'a function'};
>>>>>>>>>>>       // function to set (1000) 'random' module names to be
>>>>>>>>>>> exported
>>>>>>>>>>>       const rand = (seed =
>>>>>>>>>>> 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz0123456789', n = 5, len = seed.length) =>
>>>>>>>>>>>         '.'.repeat(n).replace(/./g, _ => seed[~~(Math.random() *
>>>>>>>>>>> len)]);
>>>>>>>>>>>         // use Set for unique module identifiers
>>>>>>>>>>>         const moduleNames = [...Array(1000)].map(_ => rand());
>>>>>>>>>>>         const moduleIdentifiers = new Set(moduleNames);
>>>>>>>>>>>         // below line will cause ReferenceError to be thrown
>>>>>>>>>>>         moduleNames.push(moduleNames[0]);
>>>>>>>>>>>         try {
>>>>>>>>>>>           if (moduleIdentifiers.size !== moduleNames.length) {
>>>>>>>>>>>             // check for duplicates
>>>>>>>>>>>             const duplicates = moduleNames.filter((moduleName,
>>>>>>>>>>> index) => moduleNames.indexOf(moduleName) !== index);
>>>>>>>>>>>             // notification of duplicate module names
>>>>>>>>>>>             throw new ReferenceError('module names ' +
>>>>>>>>>>> JSON.stringify(duplicates) + ' are not unique');
>>>>>>>>>>>             // perform the designated task if duplicate module
>>>>>>>>>>> names are found here
>>>>>>>>>>>           }
>>>>>>>>>>>         } catch (e) {
>>>>>>>>>>>           console.error(e);
>>>>>>>>>>>           console.trace();
>>>>>>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>>>>>>         // get, set (sync or async) exported module here
>>>>>>>>>>>         Object.assign(modules,
>>>>>>>>>>> ...[...moduleIdentifiers].map((id, value) => ({[id]:value})));
>>>>>>>>>>>         // since JavaScript plain object cannot have duplicate
>>>>>>>>>>> property names
>>>>>>>>>>>         // modules object will still be exported without
>>>>>>>>>>> duplicate property names
>>>>>>>>>>>         // without collisions
>>>>>>>>>>>         export {modules}
>>>>>>>>>>>     `);
>>>>>>>>>>>     const scriptText = `import {modules} from
>>>>>>>>>>> "data:application/javascript,${oneThousandModules};${encodeURIComponent('console.log(modules);for
>>>>>>>>>>> (const key in modules) {if (typeof modules[key] === \'function\')
>>>>>>>>>>> {console.log(modules[key]());}}')}"`;
>>>>>>>>>>>     const script = document.createElement("script");
>>>>>>>>>>>     script.type = "module";
>>>>>>>>>>>     script.textContent = scriptText;
>>>>>>>>>>>     document.head.appendChild(script);
>>>>>>>>>>>   })();
>>>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> plnkr https://plnkr.co/edit/CgEhBY?p=preview
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 1:51 AM kai zhu <kaizhu256 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> > Place all of the code to be exported in 1 file?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> that obviously will not work, because of module-scope
>>>>>>>>>>>> collision.  can anyone share their experience on deploying a [babel-free]
>>>>>>>>>>>> pure-es6 application with 20 es-modules rolled-up into one [production]
>>>>>>>>>>>> bundle?  is it even possible?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 7:55 PM guest271314 <
>>>>>>>>>>>> guest271314 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > how would i transition from development-mode (20 es-module
>>>>>>>>>>>>> files) -> production-mode (1 rollup file)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Place all of the code to be exported in 1 file?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > with some of them having circular-references
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not certain how that is possible when using ```import```
>>>>>>>>>>>>> within ```<script type="module">```?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > how many async-modules can js-app practically load?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, how many have you tried to load? 100? 500? 1000? Either
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What specific issue are you actually to resolve?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 5:40 PM kai zhu <kaizhu256 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Oh, and yes, I've loaded upwards of 50-100 modules in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development. 20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modules is *easy* to achieve in single-page apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was that with some combination of babel/rollup/webpack or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pure-es6?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if i want to develop a pure-es6 webapp (no babel), how would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i transition from development-mode (20 es-module files) -> production-mode
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1 rollup file)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 10:47 AM Isiah Meadows <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isiahmeadows at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it's bundled by Rollup or Webpack into a single bundle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent to a single `<script type="module" src="...">`
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pointing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards the original entry point, excluding network
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requests.* But in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either case, you aren't listing 50 scripts, you're only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> listing the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entry module and importing child modules within parent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modules. Rollup
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Webpack do mostly the same thing browsers do when it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comes to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolving dependencies, just they generate a bundle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> browsers execute code afterwards. Also, it's worth noting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the gap
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between a single large request and multiple smaller requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shrunk a lot since HTTP/2 came along, since it's binary, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requests and response data to be interleaved, it better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leverages the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> underlying TCP protocol format, and it allows servers to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send data
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-emptively without the client requesting it first. (Web
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sockets are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built on this functionality.) It's still better to bundle in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> general,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it's less of a problem not to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is *not* the case for `<script type="module">` elements
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operate more like inline scripts that happen to have the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> `import`.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, and yes, I've loaded upwards of 50-100 modules in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development. 20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modules is *easy* to achieve in single-page apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * This is, of course, not the case if you are using pure ES6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't using any plugins to, say, run the original source
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Babel for React + JSX or something.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isiah Meadows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contact at isiahmeadows.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.isiahmeadows.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 2:12 AM kai zhu <kaizhu256 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Asynchronous loading differs only in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > that it takes more code to express the same logic and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > into account concurrent requests (and you need to cache
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the request,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > not the result), but it's otherwise the same from 1km away.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > so async-loading 50 ```<script type="module">``` tags
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > has equivalent side-effect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > as sync-loading single webpack-rollup (of same 50 modules)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > i have nagging suspicion of doubts.  has anyone tried
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> native async-loading large numbers (>10) of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > ```<script type="module">``` tags, and verify it resolves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identically to using a single webpack-rollup?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > again, i'm not that knowledgeable on es-modules, so above
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question may be trivially true, and i'm just not aware.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > -kai
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On 24 May 2019, at 23:41, Isiah Meadows <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isiahmeadows at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > There's two main reasons why it scales:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > 1. Modules are strongly encapsulated while minimizing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> global pollution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > 2. The resolution algorithm applies the same logic no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter how many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > modules are loaded.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > It's much easier for it to scale when you write the code
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unaware of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > how many modules you might be loading and unaware of how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deep their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > dependency graph is. Fewer assumptions here is key. It's an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > engineering problem, but a relatively simple one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > If you want a short example of how sync module resolution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > can take a look at this little utility I wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > https://github.com/isiahmeadows/simple-require-loader.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > asynchronously resolve modules, but it should help explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > from a synchronous standpoint. Asynchronous loading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> differs only in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > that it takes more code to express the same logic and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > into account concurrent requests (and you need to cache
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the request,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > not the result), but it's otherwise the same from 1km away.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Isiah Meadows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > contact at isiahmeadows.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > www.isiahmeadows.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:49 AM kai zhu <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kaizhu256 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > actually, i admit i don't know what i'm talking about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just generally confused (through ignorance) on how large-scale es-module
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dependencies resolve when loaded/imported asynchronously.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 10:42 PM Logan Smyth <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loganfsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Can you elaborate on what loading state you need to keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> track of? What is the bottleneck that you run into? Also to be sure, when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you say async-load, do you mean `import()`?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Wed, May 22, 2019, 20:17 kai zhu <kaizhu256 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > i don't use es-modules.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > but with amd/requirejs, I start having trouble with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> module-initializations in nodejs/browser at ~5 async modules (that may or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may not have circular-references).  10 would be hard, and 20 would be near
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inhuman for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > can we say its somewhat impractical for most applications
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to load more than 50 async modules (with some of them having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circular-references)?  and perhaps better design/spec module-loading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mechanisms with this usability concern in mind?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > p.s. its also impractical for me to async-load 5 or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modules without using globalThis to keep track of each module's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loading-state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > es-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > es-discuss at mozilla.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > es-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > es-discuss at mozilla.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> es-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> es-discuss at mozilla.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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