The Tragedy of the Common Lisp, or, Why Large Languages Explode (was: revive let blocks)

Benjamin Gruenbaum benjamingr at
Fri Jun 19 07:05:09 UTC 2015

This is just a heads up for context that someone published a link to Mark's
post in HN here: in case we
get any more new people posting in the thread.


> > Features like classes and `let` are very often criticised and often
languages that did not add these features and are considered 'well
designed' are given in comparison (Python's lack of block scoping for

> thing is, ES6 brought in many things that took years to explain in the
"JS way" and when finally developers started knowing and appreciating
`prototypal` inheritance and started understanding the `var` behavior, to
name just few, "we" started promoting ES6 as the universal problem solver
for every dev so that `let` is the new `var` (most developers still don't
even know what does it mean) and `const` is the better `let` and `class`
finally is in the language, something that desugar anyway to prototypal
inheritance, something developers still need to understand.

I completely agree - I think that classes and let as ways to standardise
the best practice way of something most people are already doing. This is a
noble and very important thing that really helps. By letting wisdom of the
masses show us what people need and letting user-land solutions spearhead
progress and then specifying the parts that work is an excellent approach -
having a TC in charge is really nice and ensures vision and order. The
reason I'm trying to get more involved in the process is because I like the
way things are heading and the discussions held (and I'm learning a lot).

I don't know about additional syntax - but the fact the bar is raised is
very important.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:03 AM, Andrea Giammarchi <
andrea.giammarchi at> wrote:

> > And I occasionally have to go and look up details.
> You know nothing Allen Wirfs-Brock (cit)
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Allen Wirfs-Brock <allen at>
> wrote:
>> On Jun 18, 2015, at 12:18 PM, Andreas Rossberg wrote:
>> On 18 June 2015 at 19:26, Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr at>
>> wrote:
>>> This is a mailing list comprised of people who typically have a much
>>> better understanding of the language and its corners than most (even
>>> professional) developers have (and dare I say, are interested in or care
>>> about having). With ES6 the language already got a *lot* bigger and I'd
>>> argue that it's now harder to learn the whole. The tradeoffs were
>>> worthwhile but it's definitely an issue.
>> I dare say that at this point Allen probably is the only person in the
>> world who actually fully knows and understands the complete language. I
>> won't hesitate to admit that I don't. ;)
>> And I occasionally have to go and look up details.
>> Allen
>> _______________________________________________
>> es-discuss mailing list
>> es-discuss at
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