The Tragedy of the Common Lisp, or, Why Large Languages Explode (was: revive let blocks)

Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammarchi at gmail.com
Thu Jun 18 18:30:35 UTC 2015


> I don't think JS needs many more changes as it is today.

I mean it does, but mostly on browsers land, not in its core

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Andrea Giammarchi <
andrea.giammarchi at gmail.com> wrote:

> I like Mark's post too, and if I might ...
>
> > Features like classes and `let` are very often criticised and often
> languages that did not add these features and are considered 'well
> designed' are given in comparison (Python's lack of block scoping for
> instance).
>
> thing is, ES6 brought in many things that took years to explain in the "JS
> way" and when finally developers started knowing and appreciating
> `prototypal` inheritance and started understanding the `var` behavior, to
> name just few, "we" started promoting ES6 as the universal problem solver
> for every dev so that `let` is the new `var` (most developers still don't
> even know what does it mean) and `const` is the better `let` and `class`
> finally is in the language, something that desugar anyway to prototypal
> inheritance, something developers still need to understand.
>
> So I agree we should really stop going fancy with syntax, probably think
> about sweet.js like approches, and fix all the things that will need to be
> fixed in ES6, improving and finalizing classes bringing in composition like
> it has always been possible before through prototypal inheritance. I really
> do hope traits will be highly prioritized and binary/typed data/shapes too
> 'cause I don't think JS needs many more changes as it is today.
>
> Just my lil'rant and keep up the good work.
>
> Best Regards
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> First of all, brilliant post Mark.
>>
>> > As a community, we need more of a shared sense of panic about the size
>> that ES6 has already grown to. Ideally, that panic should increase, not
>> decrease, with further growth from here as our size approaches the point of
>> no return.
>>
>> As a community, we do - if you look at HackerNews or Reddit or
>> StackOverflow people are constantly hating on JS getting larger. Features
>> like classes and `let` are very often criticised and often languages that
>> did not add these features and are considered 'well designed' are given in
>> comparison (Python's lack of block scoping for instance).
>>
>> This is a mailing list comprised of people who typically have a much
>> better understanding of the language and its corners than most (even
>> professional) developers have (and dare I say, are interested in or care
>> about having). With ES6 the language already got a *lot* bigger and I'd
>> argue that it's now harder to learn the whole. The tradeoffs were
>> worthwhile but it's definitely an issue.
>>
>> It's easy to forget here what traps the average user might fall into, and
>> it's easy to forget what they care about and what confuses them.
>>
>> Fwiw, there are examples of big languages that are well liked, the
>> "canonical" example of a big but very well liked (and well designed imho)
>> language is C#. It has a lot of cruft now (delegates and events, array
>> covariance etc) but it is still a very well liked language in general.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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