Dmitry A. Soshnikov dmitry.soshnikov at gmail.com
Wed Aug 24 02:32:20 PDT 2011

On 24.08.2011 3:07, Allen Wirfs-Brock wrote:
> On Aug 9, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Dmitry A. Soshnikov wrote:
>> On 24.08.2011 0:39, Allen Wirfs-Brock wrote:
>>> I'm don't really see the that they are needed enough to build these in when they can be synthesized pretty easily.  What is the justification for these and not others such as getAccessorProperties, getDataProperties, getNonWritableProperties, etc.
>> Maybe, why not? `Object.methods` is just standard in some languages (e.g. Ruby, `foo.instance_methods`). Yes, all of yours listed above could be either built-in or self-implemented, don't know how often they are needed IRL. This topic follows the recent near topic with doc-comments of functions. The same, playing with a new language in console it's the best just to type e.g. `foo.methods` (like in Ruby) and to see directly the list of methods to which the object responds. Besides, perhaps they can be used in other meta-level programming, but the initial idea seems studying the language in the console and playing with objects (not sure though whether it's a sound reason to be accepted for standardization).
>> Dmitry.
> One difference between Ruby and JavaScript is that Ruby has a formal concept of method and JavaScript does not.

(JFTR, moreover, Ruby has _only_ methods in this cases, that is, 
accessors for private instance vars, but anyway it doesn't matter much)

I propose to use definition of a method as a "property which value is a 
function". That's after all, is the same as from ES5 spec:


function that is the value of a property.

>    Whether a JS data property whose value is a function is considered to be a method or function valued instance variable is highly situational.

For the simplicity and because instances themselves can store methods 
and override them from parent's prototypes, I think the simplest version 
is again description from 4.3.27.

>    Similarly, I can also imagine an interpretation that only inherited function valued data properties are considered to be methods or that methods need to be non-writable and non-enumerable.

No, no, it's not required IMO. Because of dynamics, instances may have 
own methods -- why not? And they are still methods, that is some action 
which is _activated_ and has `this` as the instance.

>    Adding super bindings also complicates things.  Perhaps, only properties with function values that have super bindings to the object or one of its prototypes should be considered a method.  Which of these definitions should be use for a built-in Object.methods.

Object.getMethods(object) ->

var methods = {};
do {
   for (var [propertyName, value] in 
items(Object.getOwnPropertyNames(object)) if (typeof value == "function") {
     methods[propertyName] = value;
} while (object = Object.getPrototypeOf(object));

return methods;

Objects.getMethods(foo).createBar.doc // shows description of createBar 
function on foo object.

Don't know. Just one-of possible ways. E.g. it may consider only own 

> I'm all for rich interactive environments for working with JavaScript and such environments do need to access or infer metadata about JavaScript code.

Absolutely. Currently ES doesn't even have a _good console_ to try the 
language. Once again, these two things as: (1) good auto-complete of 
property names which is shown by pressing `tab` after dot property 
accessor, and (2) the ability to get help information on the function 
directly from the console -- help(parseInt) -> "Converts a string into a 
num..." makes learning the language much quicker and fun.

I think you should think on implementing the sample version of ES -- the 
ES itself and to spread it as downloadable binaries from the 
ecmascript.org. Then people will just be able (1) to run it and pay in 
the console learning the methods and properties of object, getting the 
documentation right from here and (2) to attach the engine to favorite 
editor and call it right from the editor by just pressing F5 and getting 
output to the editors console back. There's no need to install Firefox 
or Chrome first, go to their consoles, write there with inconvenient way 
(or to copy-paste code from convenient editor to the inconvenient 
Firebug's console and run).

Because now, to compile e.g. SpiderMonkey, it is required long process 
with installing Mozilla-build, then to install many patches to VS 
(because my 2005 compiler isn't supported anymore), etc. It doesn't 
matter much of course, I can handle it. But it would be the best if 
newcomers could just download ECMAScript (for Windows, Mac, Linux) and 
just execute it. And already in the console to play with it and to get 
the help directly and introspect meta-information, such as methods, etc.

Python did it. It's learned in a week max. Why not ES?

>    However, I don't necessarily think the a REPL model is the best exemplar for such an environment.

Maybe, don't know. But the internal information on functions it's IMO 
very good idea which implemented by Python. Moreover, that's said, the 
good possibilities for auto-suggest and auto-complete based on the 

>    Also there can be real problems with exposing too much program metadata directly to the application layer.

OTOH, yes, true.

>   I've had lots of experience with Smalltalk environments where this was the case and it leads to a muddling of the metalayers and the application layers of a system because many developers don't understand the concepts of stratification well enough to know which methods are not really appropriate for use in application logic.

Regardless that unstratified meta-level is not a good idea, only it 
allows to write the code in the shortest ways and without much of 
syntactic "noise" and "garbage". But, seems we're talking about 
stratified method -- Object.methods(obj), and not about obj.method.

However, that's said, I also don't see big practical applications of 
this exact Object.methods(...), so comments and the cases are welcome, 
so we have to think whether we even need it.


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